Citizen Rebel

[00:00:00] Parry Headrick: The most pleasant thing that has happened since I started talking out about this administration on LinkedIn is that I can live with myself. I am actually doing something, saying something, putting up my fist and saying I do not consent. And I'll tell you that makes me feel a hell of a lot better than suffering in silence.

[00:00:19] Alaina Shearer: Hi, it's Alaina and Chris from Citizen Rebel, the podcast for founders, small business owners and bold influencers who refuse to stay silent,

[00:00:27] Chris Vogel: and those of us who wanna do the same. That's right. What's going on right now is crazy and there's people out there that are speaking out and saying something and, you know, living an uncomfortable life as a result.

[00:00:40] Chris Vogel: So we want to talk to those people

[00:00:42] Alaina Shearer: and yeah, and some of the people, it's uncomfortable at first to, to say something, this is what we're finding. But once they've said something, once they've hit publish on that content, speaking how they really feel about the Trump administration, they feel relief and they feel comfortable.

[00:00:59] Alaina Shearer: In finding their voice and that they can, you know, actually sleep at night,

[00:01:04] Chris Vogel: right? Until the MAGA trolls come back every six weeks and hit old posts again.

[00:01:09] Alaina Shearer: The MAGA trolls are, you know, it's funny 'cause I, I have been out publishing content now since I was 26 years old. I was a single mom. I had a blog about being a single mom and the first comment ever left on my blog.

[00:01:26] Alaina Shearer: And, and I had published this post with Extreme Care. It had taken me days to write it. I was writing from my heart. I was like, Hey, there's nobody else out here who I found who, who's experiencing what I'm experiencing. I'm a single mother. I. Hello World, and the first comment that this person posted, the first comment I ever received was, I hope you die alone with your cats.

[00:01:50] Alaina Shearer: Wow. Yeah, it was, and I remember at the time that being my first negative comment again almost 20 years ago now, I was devastated. I was a mess. I could, I could just hear it.

[00:02:02] Chris Vogel: You can hear celebrities, they talk about it like it's, it's a real problem. And even we know these are, you know, dumb psychopathic trolls out there just getting a tickle out of getting, of having people get upset.

[00:02:14] Chris Vogel: Right. It still really hurts.

[00:02:16] Alaina Shearer: They leave their comment and they crawl under the bridge. That is why we call them trolls because they, they go and hide. And I tell that story. I tell it now because to anyone listening who's thinking about saying something, you do. Begin to let it roll off of your back, and it says, take time.

[00:02:34] Alaina Shearer: But we are here to help you through that. You know, if you're, if you're thinking about publishing content and you need a cheerleader, just message us on LinkedIn and will be there for you. But over the years as I kept getting these negative comments and my blog grew and grew in popularity to the point where I have, you know, I had like a million page views a month.

[00:02:53] Alaina Shearer: It was, it, it took off, but. I finally figured out that when you take the negative, you turn it into a positive by republishing it. So when you pull the trolls out from under the bridge, and what I did was take a negative, someone had wrote me a horribly, horribly negative letter. It written to me of just how, what a horrible un-Christian woman I was and I was gonna like burn in hell.

[00:03:19] Alaina Shearer: And I took that letter and I published it and you know what happened? That was. A post that resonated with so many of my readers, and they started to comment and defend me, you know, and themselves in turn. But when you take it and you pull that troll out from under and you expose them, it works. It works.

[00:03:38] Alaina Shearer: And so now, today, flash forward, I had a post up on LinkedIn about the Save act that forces women who've changed their married name to go get a birth certificate and they wanna register to vote or a passport with the same name. A troll comes forward and he says, oh, clearly you're a liberal who went to this college.

[00:03:57] Alaina Shearer: And he had looked through my whole LinkedIn and put what year I graduated and what I majored in and everything.

[00:04:03] Chris Vogel: Wow. That's yeah.

[00:04:04] Alaina Shearer: Super fun. So I wrote him back right away without even thinking. 'cause now it's been like 20 years of doing this kind of stuff and I just said, you are. So I said, it's very obvious that I'm anti maga.

[00:04:15] Alaina Shearer: Good job. And also, you are so creepy. Go back under your bridge. I left that part off. But anyway, there's, there's a lot that Chris and I are gonna unpack throughout the season. And today we are really excited to get into this topic. We're gonna talk about posting anti MAGA content with Perry Hedrick and he is the founder of Crackle PR.

[00:04:39] Alaina Shearer: Is a very big company with a bunch of fancy clients, and Perry is not a person who you would expect just looking at him to, he's very buttoned up professional white man that you would expect him to be taking these really strong stances on LinkedIn.

[00:04:56] Chris Vogel: Yeah, it's, it's really surprising. It's not the, the type of person they would expect, and I think that's got some people's feathers ruffled, so it'll be interesting to see what he tells us about.

[00:05:05] Alaina Shearer: Yeah. Yeah. The posts are challenging, the administration left and right, but also from his perspective as a business owner. So we're really excited to welcome Perry to the show today. Hi, Perry.

[00:05:16] Parry Headrick: It is a pleasure to join you and I'm glad you said I had fancy uh, jobs that was important to me. I'm kidding.

[00:05:23] Parry Headrick: It's not important to me at all.

[00:05:24] Alaina Shearer: It's all about the, the work, right? And that's right. Doing what you love. Yeah. Yeah. I'd love for you to set the stage for our listeners who don't. Follow you on LinkedIn and maybe for those who are listening and not necessarily even watching, but really set the stage and describe yourself and how you ended up making that decision to take a political stance on what is typically considered not a political platform.

[00:05:51] Parry Headrick: Yeah, so it's a big question and it's not an easy answer. I am somebody who has always been. Kind of in the background relative to politics. I never really drew a hard line in the sand about my affiliations until I think the Trump era. I think for somebody like me who is in the business of perception, which is really what public relations is, it's easy for me to kind of see what that man is is trying to put out into the world and the perception he's trying to make of himself.

[00:06:24] Parry Headrick: When for somebody who helps build people's. Perceptions and personas. It's just so patently thin and shallow and, and false to me. You just look at the evidence related to what he's done in his business, in his personal life, you know, whether it's bankrupting casinos, whether it's stealing money from kids' cancer charities, whether it's, you know, burying an ex-wife in his golf courses, like he just, the, the man is a little bit wild and attitude.

[00:06:51] Parry Headrick: His bombast, his. Sort of charismatic malevolence, I guess is the way to, to describe it. And so I paid attention to him sort of in an entertained way in the early, early days when he, when he first joined the first race, the first time, thinking there's no chance in hell America would fall for this like complete nonsense, no chance.

[00:07:10] Parry Headrick: And we endured what became the Trump presidency, and we watched his bungling of a million things, not least of which is the death of, you know, many thousands of people during covid. And in just a very short period of time, since Trump has regained power, what we've seen is a wholesale erosion of many of the foundational pieces of our democracy.

[00:07:31] Alaina Shearer: A lot of the stories are unbelievable, literally, that, you know, this keeps happening. And as a PR professional. Having that lens on it, it, I'm sure it is more obtrusive or intrusive to you and your view, but what was it? Was it anything in particular that sparked your first post against. Trump in particular, and when did that happen?

[00:07:58] Parry Headrick: I, I don't know what the first one was, honestly, because in recent months I've, I've posted several times about several different things that are just unbelievably insane that are happening right now. One of the big ones for me being a former reporter, being in PR, was his kicking the ap, the Associated Press out of the White House correspondence room.

[00:08:17] Parry Headrick: You know, AP plays it about as, as straight down the line as you can play it. And they are, you know, award-winning for a reason. They are in there, they have every right to be in there. But if you cover Trump unfavorably, he's doing what autocrats do, which is he is suppressing your voice and kicking you out of the room Now.

[00:08:34] Parry Headrick: That was one of the, you know, probably five big things that just got me, I I right to the point where I was like, I cannot stay silent anymore. Like the free press is literally under attack at this moment.

[00:08:44] Alaina Shearer: It's true. So it was this year though. Were you posting last year before the election?

[00:08:48] Parry Headrick: You know, I, I, I did, I did a few posts last year as well.

[00:08:53] Parry Headrick: I think, I think what the post that really got me going was I did a post talking like LinkedIn is a business platform, right? So I did a post that was like, I have a hiring nightmare story. Like I. I tried to hire this person who wasn't who I thought he was, even though, you know, some friends liked him, he like claimed to be, you know, strong.

[00:09:10] Parry Headrick: He'd done the job before, but I found out, it turns out he had been stealing from people and he had been, he was an adjudicated rapist. He was like this and that and that. And then I was like, oh, I'm sorry. I meant, I meant company. I said, I meant country. But what I said was. Company at the front of this post.

[00:09:27] Parry Headrick: Like the whole idea was that everybody who was reading it was like, oh my God, you almost got sucked into this nightmare. But then the, the aha like, you know, moment at the end was, I really was talking about the country and not my company and, and how can you be aghast at the, if it was my company and not aghast, it's the country I'm talking about, which is far bigger and far more consequential.

[00:09:47] Parry Headrick: I don't know where I started. I, I, it's hard to know because his days of, of just like. Insanity have bled into the next, and it's been going on for 10 years now. So it's just tough to say exactly when the moment came. But I do know this, I find myself increasingly less interested in trying to convert MAGA folks because they're unwilling to be converted.

[00:10:07] Parry Headrick: You know, you can't change the narrative that they're lock, stock, and barrel in, and that's what occult is, and that's where they're

[00:10:13] Chris Vogel: at. It's absolutely true, and I think a lot of what you said tracks with us 100%. It's interesting that you said that you can't really pinpoint the exact moment, but you said previously you weren't really inclined to to, to speak out, to be very vocal.

[00:10:29] Chris Vogel: We were more in the background, but now that has changed. Once you realized that change, like what was going through your head? What was, what was happening inside?

[00:10:38] Parry Headrick: Yeah, so I started my company Crackle PR with a very clear, true north, which was to do good work with only good companies like. Full stop. And so I started thinking about what I'm doing and what is happening in the world through the lens of my, my own business.

[00:10:54] Parry Headrick: Like I, I won't tolerate malignant assholes in my work life. I'm not gonna work with them and I'm not gonna hire them. And I have been vocal about that. You know, like that's one of the things that, that sort of got me a bit of an audience on LinkedIn is that I was very, very clear that since I own my own company.

[00:11:11] Parry Headrick: I'm not tolerating that kind of behavior anymore. Like the world's full of all kinds of problems. I want to be a part of the solution. I wanna work with people that are trying to be a part of the solution. And so how do you have that as your true north, as a business leader and as a father, and as a son, and as a husband, and not take issue with what's happening in terms of the governance of, of our, of our country.

[00:11:32] Parry Headrick: I, they're in, those two ideas are incompatible where I can talk about my own business in my own life, but I can't talk about. How I feel about the, the highest levels of government. So at some point, these two ideas became intertwined to the point where I just like said, what's fair game for me and my business is fair game for for the government.

[00:11:49] Parry Headrick: And if you don't like my opinions, I, I'm sorry about that, but I'm still going to express them. It's like avol tear cult, like, I don't like what you say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say them. Like that's kind of how I feel about the whole Trump administration, the First Amendment and how I feel about it.

[00:12:04] Alaina Shearer: And one of your recent posts captured that. Very well. It was, so we're not allowed to talk about politics on LinkedIn, but politics is now business and you showed the stock market crashing that day. Yeah, I think that's what it was, right?

[00:12:18] Parry Headrick: Yeah. That's one of them. Sure.

[00:12:20] Alaina Shearer: Tell us about the reaction to the post.

[00:12:21] Alaina Shearer: You know, so you've told us how you got there and, and you are posting frequently about our political situation right now. What, like two or three times a week maybe?

[00:12:31] Parry Headrick: Yeah, I'm, I'm trying to strike the right balance between. I don't wanna become just the radical on LinkedIn, like I wanna also have a business and a life and a livelihood.

[00:12:41] Parry Headrick: So I'm a little mindful of that, but I think that these two things are not mutually exclusive. I can do both. And so I'm trying to find the right find, find the right balance. And the reaction to your, to your question is, I have more followers than when I started posting about, you know, Trump and this crazy administration not last.

[00:12:58] Parry Headrick: So, so there, there's an audience for it. I have people that are in my dms like literally every single day thanking me for. Having the courage to speak up, which to, to me, doesn't feel all that courageous. It just feels like a moral imperative. You know, like somebody somewhere, maybe Blue Sky said something like, did you ever wonder what you would do during the fascism?

[00:13:16] Parry Headrick: During the thirties? Well, you're doing that right now. And, and that really stuck with me. It's like, yeah, do I really wanna sit here and say nothing and look back, you know, six months, two years from now, and say, I, I could have said something. I wish I had said something. I wish I had done something.

[00:13:32] Chris Vogel: Yeah.

[00:13:32] Chris Vogel: I'd love to dig in a little bit deeper into that balance. 'cause I think that's at the kind of nexus of what we are experiencing. A lot of the companies out there is. Yeah. Like you said, it's easier to express yourself in your normal setting with your family and friends, but as soon as there's, you know, clients and customers on the line, yeah.

[00:13:50] Chris Vogel: Things begin to change. And you see a lot of people still being silent out there, we assume because of that fear. So how do you handle that?

[00:13:59] Parry Headrick: So I think in some regards I've attracted as clients, the kinds of people who would be receptive to what I'm saying now about the current administration and the current craziness because they know authentically, like I'm just telling you and I've always told you for years who I am and what I believe.

[00:14:15] Parry Headrick: So I think what's happening is that most of the folks in my orbit are viewing what I'm doing now as a natural extension of what I've always done, which is to just be the, the outspoken voice on a platform that was. Previously pretty stodgy and stuffy and you know, people trying to speed click, they're standing in top Mount Olympus and flowing robes.

[00:14:34] Parry Headrick: And what I'm trying to do is just talk one-to-one. Like I'm talking to grandma. I think for me it's been okay. Now, having said that, I'm certain I've left deals on the table because people have probably said, I'm never working with that ferry Hedberg guy. He, he doesn't like Trump. Like I'm sure there have been people that haven't knocked on my door, but there's been nobody that's been inside my house that has decided to leave.

[00:14:54] Parry Headrick: And I can point specifically to the last time I lost a client. It was in Q3 of 2024. It had nothing to do with politics. I haven't lost a single client since, and in fact, I've added many to the roster. I'm not saying it's because of what I'm talking about with Trump and politics, but I am saying it hasn't been detrimental, so I, I think maybe it's a bit of a reflection of if you live as authentically as you can out in public all along, then if you remain authentic about new topics, it seems to be well received.

[00:15:25] Alaina Shearer: If you're in need of some killer branding and marketing, check out our agency. Good Now, where we're dedicated to purpose-driven brands like yours,

[00:15:32] Chris Vogel: from brand architecture to websites and executive personal brand training. If your brand is ready to take on the world, but not quite ready to face the world, we're here for you.

[00:15:41] Alaina Shearer: Visit goodisnow.com for more. What would you advise the heads of major corporations and on the B2B or B2C side in particular? And their, their PR teams right now and how to handle this, especially as it unfolds, because I think we all three agree it's just going to get worse, worse, and worse and worse.

[00:16:05] Alaina Shearer: So if you were in the room with someone at say, some big silent company, yeah. You could pick on Target or another one like that, what would you tell them to do? What should they be doing right now?

[00:16:17] Parry Headrick: So I understand that there's a lot of fear, especially at the bigger companies, that there'll be retaliation for saying things that are untoward about the administration.

[00:16:25] Parry Headrick: I mean, the evidence is everywhere that if you speak poorly of him, he'll try to come after you legally and call you a traitor and you know, all that. So, so that aside, I think the best way to start having these conversations and start voicing opposition is to focus on policy first. Because then you don't have a whole swath of people saying like, well, you just don't knock, knock that Trump.

[00:16:48] Parry Headrick: It's really more like, oh, he's looking at the, he's looking after his business and his customers and his end users and you know, trying to do what's best economically in a democracy that thrives on capitalistic sort of leanings. I mean, that's really the key for, I think, some of the business leaders to start now.

[00:17:03] Parry Headrick: I wish more would focus on the morality of it and just, you know, start pointing out just how inherently sort of. anti-American and you know, fascistic, most of this stuff that we're seeing is, but I think that's a leap too far for a lot of these folks who have shareholders to, to answer to. And you know, a lot of different constituencies that they have to navigate and walk that fine line.

[00:17:27] Parry Headrick: So for me, focus on the policy initially until more people start focusing on policy. 'cause they will, this tariff stuff is getting more people to finally start coming out of the woodwork a little bit. And then what you start seeing is a bit of a crescendo of business leaders saying like, Hey, if you look around, we are all kind of agreeing.

[00:17:43] Parry Headrick: This is bad. Like what is happening economically is bad, and by the way, some other things are starting to get bad too. Let's talk about those. So you gotta start, I think, on the policy, on the wallet. And then from there, I think you can soften the beach heads for more difficult conversations around the ethics.

[00:18:00] Alaina Shearer: What would you say to founders or business owners listening to this podcast who are on the fence and to whether or not they should publish something or say something?

[00:18:09] Parry Headrick: I would say you would be amazed if you started speaking truth to power. How many people would be messaging you privately to thank you for your courage, and to say that you've given them hope that, you know, the end is not near that.

[00:18:25] Parry Headrick: Maybe if there are enough of these types of voices. That start banding together, then we can, we can flip the narrative here. I think what makes me feel good is that I know there are others out there that feel the way I feel, and I know there are other leaders that feel the way I feel. 'cause I talk to them privately and to a man and woman, they're all scratching their heads and just thinking, what in the hell is gonna happen next?

[00:18:47] Parry Headrick: Like no one really knows. I mean, one of the things I think that is by design from this administration is to create broad uncertainty. Have people know that the only thing they can count on is chaos. And if you keep doing that and flooding the zone at all times and changing the conversation from this trauma to that scandal, to then everybody will always be walking on pins and needles unaware of what to do next because they're terrified to do anything.

[00:19:13] Parry Headrick: And what I'm trying to say is if more business leaders were to speak up and show a little bit more of a united front, then that chaos begins to subside because they become now a bit of an anti force to that chaotic. Sort of fire hose twisting out into the universe, and, and it becomes a little more organized and a little bit more of a target for the administration to have to focus on in terms of now we have to deal with like an actual opposition.

[00:19:38] Parry Headrick: And I would love to see an organized opposition that isn't about, I don't like your hair. I think you're, you know, a bad man, you're orange, but on policy. On ethics, on immigration policy, on all of the stuff that I think any good, decent human being ultimately knows is right. I think that's where to go.

[00:19:58] Parry Headrick: Yeah.

[00:19:59] Alaina Shearer: We'll have to wait for that from the Democratic party, see how long it takes them to get it together. We might have to create it on our own though, and it could be, it could come from the private sector.

[00:20:09] Parry Headrick: I have business leaders, and in particular I have corporate business leaders who have. Been at the highest levels of some of the biggest companies in America who run comms.

[00:20:19] Parry Headrick: And we're talking behind the scenes about what needs to happen. We're talking about possibly coming up with a, uh, communications plan for the Democrats 'cause they can't seem to pull it together themselves. You know, these are early conversations, but there are a lot of people wondering in a lot of different ways what we can do and how we can apply our.

[00:20:40] Parry Headrick: Savvy to the situation because to your point, Democrats are twisting in the wind. They don't know. They don't know what they're doing. And I think Chuck Schumer is probably not the best representative at this point because he's a little milk toast and maybe a little, little long in the tooth to try to fight this battle in the way it needs to be fought.

[00:20:59] Alaina Shearer: Yeah, they all are. When you do organize that group, give me a call. 'cause I ran for Congress in Ohio and learned so much. About the, the Democrats, how they organize, how they don't organize, and yeah, a lot of intel on that front. Yeah. So, yeah. 1, 1, 1 thing I'm wondering of the, what is the most unexpected, pleasant thing that has happened since you started speaking your truth to power on LinkedIn?

[00:21:28] Alaina Shearer: Something that you weren't expecting.

[00:21:30] Parry Headrick: Yeah, the most pleasant thing that has happened since I started talking out about this administration on LinkedIn is that I can live with myself. I have been trying to walk on eggshells and just like post about typical PR things and it hit I, I was trying to figure out why I was feeling insane, and the reason was, is because I know there was a huge elephant in the room that I was completely ignoring, and I, I no longer could do that.

[00:21:54] Parry Headrick: And once I started actually. Speaking out and letting people know how I felt. To me, it was cathartic and remains cathartic because I know that I'm actually doing something and I'm not suppressing my urge to scream from the rooftops that this is not normal. So the most pleasant thing is that even though, again, I may have turned, I may have lost money as a result of this.

[00:22:16] Parry Headrick: I don't know. The most pleasant thing is that I have peace of mind that I am actually doing something, saying something. Putting up my fist and saying I do not consent. And I'll tell you, that makes me feel a hell of a lot better than suffering in silence.

[00:22:31] Chris Vogel: That's great to hear. Can we flip it around and can you tell us what the most unpleasant thing is that happened as a result of all this?

[00:22:37] Parry Headrick: Yeah,

[00:22:38] Chris Vogel: it's, it's

[00:22:39] Parry Headrick: every day. You know how sometimes a post to just lives on, it keeps, you keep getting comments and comments and comments. So I have like, probably I would say. 15 different sort of critical posts of the administration that just keep having comments generated. And every day there's probably five to 10, you know, 60-year-old white men who they all look exactly the same.

[00:23:00] Parry Headrick: Pop in my comments and tell me to go away. Go, you know. Trump like, woo, like they all look exactly the same and they're just, they are trolls trolling my content and I see them every day, multiple times a day. And it's just astonishing how very similar they all are, that they look like they could be from the same.

[00:23:18] Parry Headrick: You know, fraternity. Yeah. From like the,

[00:23:22] Chris Vogel: the, the seventies, you know what I mean? Yeah. Um, so how does that, like reading those comments and receiving that, like how does that feel? I mean, if you're probably not used to getting such negativity thrown at you. Right?

[00:23:32] Parry Headrick: Yeah. I've never gotten any negativity thrown at me at all until I started talking about politics and I now it's exclusively from that same group of, you know, entitled white males who seem to be telling me that I, LinkedIn is for business, not politics.

[00:23:47] Parry Headrick: Uh, but okay. It's funny that you all look the same and sound the same and at the same age telling me the same thing. You're uncomfortable that I'm pointing out truths. I'm pointing out truths that are difficult to hear because, you know, deep down that it's probably not okay to disappear. People who are not illegal in this country, it's probably not okay to attack universities.

[00:24:06] Parry Headrick: Wink, wink, probably not okay to, you know, do half the shit that the Trump administration is doing, but it makes them uncomfortable and rather than point out any sort of. Factual inaccuracy with what I've said. They just tell me that I'm a fool and go Trump and go away and et cetera. So that's been unpleasant.

[00:24:23] Parry Headrick: What I tend to do is just treat them like they do in the south and just be like, bless your heart. Yeah, bless your heart. And instead of trying to engage with them or do battle with them because it's like slamming your head against the wall. You know, a very white, white wall

[00:24:37] Alaina Shearer: and, and you, you are a white business man and who is, you know, successful on paper.

[00:24:44] Alaina Shearer: I know the word success is weird, but from looking outside in, that probably angers them very, very much. You know, you, you start, well, yeah.

[00:24:53] Parry Headrick: More theirs isn't, isn't on board with the, with the Trump message. Like, what the hell? Yeah. Yeah, so I think that's, that's a part of it. I think that's a part of it is that I look like I could be at the same country club and yet I, I'm not drinking the, the Kool-Aid.

[00:25:06] Parry Headrick: You know what I mean?

[00:25:07] Alaina Shearer: We are really, really glad that you joined us today and thanks so much for sharing your story and thanks for much, so

[00:25:12] Chris Vogel: much for, for doing what you're doing. I really appreciate it. We need more people like you.

[00:25:17] Parry Headrick: I appreciate that and I suspect we'll start seeing more and more of. That I think that there are people that are trying to find a path to, to begin to speak out.

[00:25:26] Parry Headrick: And it's easier to do once your wallet is about one third is late.

[00:25:30] Alaina Shearer: Right. Right. So to that, thank you. And to anybody listening, if you know of a business owner like Perry on any network, whether it's Instagram or LinkedIn or elsewhere. And they are taking a stand. Let us know so that we can also feature them on the podcast.

[00:25:48] Alaina Shearer: Our entire mission here is just to educate anyone who's on the fence and is trying to find their voice during this pivotal moment in our history as a country. And we don't know how it's gonna turn out, but if we all do say something and stand up and speak out, we will rest easier. We'll sleep better at night, and maybe we can actually come out of this as one

[00:26:09] Parry Headrick: country.

[00:26:10] Parry Headrick: Amen. Amen to that. It's been a pleasure coming on.

[00:26:13] Alaina Shearer: Yeah. Thank you so much. Thanks for listening to Citizen Rebel. If you like this episode, subscribe to the show and share it with a friend

[00:26:21] Chris Vogel: to connect with us and find more content like this. Visit goodisnow.com.